First Presidency Statement - February 15, 1978

"Based upon ancient and modern revelation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from mortal progenitors, but also as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father.

"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

"The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel.

"Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come.

"We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to his Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happiness and a fullness of joy forever. For those who have not received this gospel, the opportunity will come to them in the life hereafter if not in this life.

"Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are the sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father."

Spencer W. Kimball

N. Eldon Tanner

Marion G. Romney

 (“God’s Love for All Mankind,” First Presidency Statement, Feb. 15, 1978; emphasis added)

Interesting Items About the First Vision

The Book of Mormon Challenge - Hugh Nibley

LDS historian and apologist Hugh Nibley, in an effort to show how impossible it would be for someone to write the BOM, issued the following challenge:

If one scoffs at the missionary's explanation of the Book of Mormon, he is in so many words claiming it to be false: That it is a deceiving fraud formulated through the efforts and talents of a common man. What is produced by one man can always be duplicated by another. The challenge that the Book of Mormon makes to the world is that of duplication. Because the book complies with every one of the following conditions, in order to produce a similar record, one must comply with the same conditions.

Here is the challenge: Can you accept it?

1. Write a history of ancient Tibet covering a period from 600 B.C. to 450 A.D. Why ancient Tibet? Because you know no more about Tibet than Joseph Smith (or anyone else) knew about ancient America.
2. You are 23 years of age.
3. You have had no more than three years of formal school education, and have spent your life in backwoods farming communities.
4. Your history must be written on the basis of what you now know. There was no library that held information for Joseph Smith. You must use none. There is to be no research of any kind.
5. Your history must be 531 pages and over 300,000 words in length.
6. Other than a few grammatical corrections, you must have no changes in the text. The first edition as you dictate it to your secretary must stand forever.
7. This record is to contain the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.
8. You must describe their religious, economic, political, and social cultures and institutions. Cover every phase of their society, including the names of their coins.
9. Change your style of writing many times. Many ancient authors contributed to the Book of Mormon, each with his own style.
10. Weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living.
11. You must claim that your smooth narrative is not fiction with moral value, but true and sacred history.
12. You must include in you book fifty-four chapters dealing with wars, twenty-one historical chapters, fifty-five chapters on visions and prophecies. Remember, when you begin to write visions and prophecies, you must have your record agree meticulously with the Bible. You must write seventy-one chapters on doctrine and exhortation, and you must check every statement with the scriptures or you will be proven a fraud. You must write twenty-one chapters on the ministry of Christ, and every thing you claim he said and every testimony you write in your book about Him must agree absolutely with the New Testament.
13. Many of the facts, claims, ideas, and statements given as absolute truth in your writing must be entirely inconsistent with the prevailing beliefs of the world. Some of these worldly beliefs must be the direct opposite of your claims.
14. Included in your narrations will be authentic modes of travel; whether or not those ancient people used fire; description of their clothing, crops, mourning customs, and types of government. You must invent about 280 new names that will stand up under scrutiny through the years as to their proper application and derivation.
15. You will have to properly use figures of speech, similes, metaphors, narrations, exposition, descriptions, oratory, epic lyric, and parables.
16. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care, and you must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of those eager to prove it a forgery, and who are most competent to expose every flaw in it.
17. Thorough investigation, scientific and historical evidence, and archeological discovery for the next 125 years must verify its claims and prove detail after detail to be true, for many of the details you put in your history are still buried beneath the soil of Tibet.
18. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people declaring it to be the word of God and another witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.
19. The book must not contain any absurd, impossible, or contradictory statements. Your history must not contain any statement that will contradict any other statement elsewhere in the volume.
20. Many theories and ideas as to its origin must arise, and after discovering and examining the facts, they must fail. You have claimed that your knowledge had come from divine origin, and this claim continues to stand as the only possible explanation. The strength of this explanation must not decrease as time passes, but actually increases to the point where it becomes the only logical explanation.
21. Your record is to fulfill many Bible prophecies, even in the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom delivered, its purposes, and its accomplishments.
22. Call down an angel from heaven in the middle of the day and have him bear testimony to four honest, dignified citizens of your community that the record is the word of God. These witnesses must bear the angel's testimony to the world, not for profit or gain, but under great sacrifice and severe persecution, even to their death beds. You must put that testimony to the test by becoming an enemy to these men.
23. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, national and international personalities, and scholars for 165 years must accept your history and its teachings even to the point of laying down their life rather than deny their testimony of it.
24. You must include with within the record this promise: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost."
25. Missionaries must bear record to the world for the next 165 years that they know the record to be true because they put the promise to the test and found it to be true. The truth of it was manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost.
26. Over 52,900 plus competent salesman must be so sold on your book that they gladly give up two or more years of their lives to take it to all parts of the world for distribution. They not only pay their own way during these years, but return bearing testimony that the time spent will remain as one of the highlights of their lives. They receive nothing in return for their efforts but the joy of having shared your book with others.
27. Your book must not only raise the standards of millions of people but do it in such a way that they become one of the great moral, ethical, and dynamic marvels of the day. They must become world renowned for this.
28. For the next 20 years you must watch those that follow and you, your family, and the dearest of your loved ones persecuted, driven time after time from their homes, beaten, tortured, starved, frozen and killed. Tens of thousands must undergo the most extreme hardships in your presence just because they believe your claims concerning the origin and content of what you have written on ancient Tibet.
29. You must gain no wealth from your work, but many times lose all that you have. Like those that believe you, you must submit yourself to the most vile persecution. And finally after 20 years of this, give your own life in a very savage and brutal manner, for your testimony concerning your history book. This must be done willingly on your part.
30. Start right now and produce this record which covers 1,000 years of history, doing it, not in the peaceful atmosphere of your community, but under the most trying of circumstances which include being driven from your home several times, and receiving constant threats upon your life. Please have your book completed, talk a friend into mortgaging his farm to raise money to have it printed - all in 60 days.

There is only one answer: The Book of Mormon is a divine record. If not, its origin must be stated and its claims must be explained by the critic. It isn't enough to merely discard it as false and forget about it!

The first thing to do in examining any ancient text is to consider it in the light of the origin and background; there is no need to look farther, since historical forgery is virtually impossible.

___________________________

Critics of the book have tried to refute this challenge, but none of them have ever reproduced anything like The Book of Mormon.  None of them have ever accepted the challenge.  So, to the critics, go ahead and criticize all you want, but until you actually reproduce something like the Book of Mormon, you haven't a leg to stand on.  

The Book of Mormon - Writings of Nephi and Isaiah

Many evidences supporting The Book of Mormon have emerged since it was first published  in 1830.  Although I have written of the importance and necessity of receiving a testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost, I have had my testimony strengthened by other means as well.  

One of my favorite pieces of evidence occur in the writings of the prophet Nephi.  In this particular grouping of writings Nephi is quoting the writings of the prophet Isaiah, which had been preserved for him and his posterity on the Brass Plates.  The verse I am referring to is in 2 Nephi 12:16 and it reads as follows -

 16 And upon all the ships of the ^asea, and upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

At first glance this really doesn't mean anything to the causal observer.  However, when compared to the verse from Isaiah in the KJV of the Bible we can see a difference.  

Isaiah 2:16 -

16 ^aAnd upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. 

The Isaiah verse is missing something in the fact that it says nothing about the "ships of the sea."  It only mentions the "ships of Tarshish."  

Many critics would simply use this as a means to claim that Joseph Smith must have embellished the verse and/or added his own interpretation of it, either to make himself look like a prophet who is inspired or to give validity to the fact that he didn't just copy parts of the Bible.  However, neither is true.  There is a third option, and it is the correct option.  

In the Greek version of the Bible, called the Septuagint Bible, we find something rather interesting.  In the verse in Isaiah 2:16 it reads as follows - 

16 και επι παν πλοιον θαλασσης και επι πασαν θεαν πλοιων καλλους

(translation)

16, and upon every seagoing vessels and upon all Theano ships Kallis

The Greek version mentions seagoing vessels, and doesn't specifically mention the ships of Tarshish (although the ending of the verse isn't easily translated, so it could be the same thing).  

The overall point I am trying to make is that it seems highly unlikely that Joseph Smith, who knew neither Greek nor was practiced in theology at the time of translation, would have paid close enough attention to one single verse of scripture to worry about making sure it matched up with both the English version of the Bible and the Greek version of the Bible.  

My witness is that the Book of Mormon is a true book and that Joseph Smith was the translator of it, and that he did so by the gift and power of God.  

The Sin of Needing a Sign

I have often been asked if I have any evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, as if somehow physical or tangible proof is the best way to prove such things.  While I do have many credible tangible reasons for believing, I rely more on my witness from God through the power of the Holy Ghost than by any other means.  This is the proper way of things.  In the Book of Mormon we are taught;

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a^asign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

 18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to ^abelieve, for he knoweth it.

 19 And now, how much ^amore ^bcursed is he that ^cknoweth the^dwill of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into ^etransgression?

 21 And now as I said concerning faith—^afaith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye ^bhope for things which are ^cnot seen, which are true.

These verses from Alma 32 show that needing signs before belief is not only an unwise path to follow, but can also bring greater condemnation if the sign is not followed.  

In Matthew 16 in the New Testament we read;

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Wicked people seek after a sign before they will believe.  They are also the first to disbelieve once they have received a sign! (aren't things ironic?)  We learn of this truth in 3 Nephi in the Book of Mormon

 1 And it came to pass that thus passed away the ninety and fifth year also, and the people began to forget those ^asigns and wonders which they had heard, and began to be less and less astonished at a sign or a wonder from heaven, insomuch that they began to be hard in their hearts, and blind in their minds, and began to disbelieve all which they had heard and seen—

 2 ^aImagining up some vain thing in their hearts, that it was wrought by men and by the power of the devil, to lead away and^bdeceive the hearts of the people; and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again, insomuch that he did blind their eyes and lead them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ was a ^cfoolish and a vain thing.

Requiring a sign before belief is probably the worst way to try and gain a witness of the truth.  

My experience and testimony is that God places a premium on belief without a sign more than on belief with having received a sign.  Perhaps this seems backwards to some, but scriptural evidence confirms this fact.  John 20 in the New Testament shows this;

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast ^aseen me, thou hast believed: ^bblessed are they that have not seen, and yet have ^cbelieved.

I don't know why this is the way of things, I only know it is true.  It is how I received my witness.  I believed and did everything I was taught that I should do, and it wasn't until after that period of testing that I received a witness from God.  But I now have this witness and I will do all I can to be faithful to it.  

Conversation With a Pastor (Part 7)

The last time wrote I posted a short email that I had sent to the the Pastor.  I didn't get a response from him in the interim but I did write him a longer response to many of his questions.  He wanted to know what I believed about Jesus Christ and he wanted to know why a restoration and prophets in our day were necessary.  He wasn't that tactful about it but I didn't expect him to be.  The necessity of a Restoration and of modern day prophets completely undermines his interpretation of the Bible as well as the church he started without direct face to face revelation from God.  

The response that follows was given in very direct words.  I explained my belief in the divinity and Godship of Jesus Christ as well as the reason a restoration was necessary.  

_______

Pastor S,

In your previous message to me you mentioned a couple of things that you wanted me to expound upon; namely the deity of Jesus Christ as well as the need for a restoration of the Gospel.  

This is my personal testimony of Jesus Christ.

I know that Jesus Christ was the first born spirit child of Heavenly Father.  He is the creator of the universe and everything therein.  He created the Earth under the direction of his Father and was chosen to be the Savior of Mankind before the Earth was even created.  I know that he came to earth as the babe born in Bethlehem of Judea and lived in very humble and meek circumstances, yet he grew in favor with God and with man.  He lived a perfect life of service and love, never once sinning or going amiss of his Father's will.  I know that on a terrible night he worked out the Infinite Atonement, which is the means whereby redemption and resurrection can come to the entire human family.  He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemanie and bled from every pore because of the burden he had to bear.  I know that he felt the pains, sickness and infirmities of the entire human family and that he did this so that he might know how to succor us in our afflictions.  I know that he suffered the pain and paid the price for the sins of all mankind, that we might repent and be found clean from the stains of this world.  I know that he was lifted up upon the cross and suffered unimaginable pain, yet I know that he did it willingly, according to the will of the Father.  I know that he was resurrected on the third day and is now a glorified and perfect being with a body of flesh and bones.  He was the first fruit of those who slept and all shall rise like he did.  I know that he ascended into heaven to take his place on the right hand of the Father, and that he is clothed with glory and perfection.  He is the Lord of the Universe and will forever be our God.  

I hope that my words helped to express at least some of how I feel about the Lord.  Words do not do justice to the feelings of my heart, however.  Yet I hope they will suffice.  

Regarding the restoration of the gospel, I must say that I appreciate the way you worded your question.  It helped me to understand what you currently know about Mormon beliefs.  From what you said you seem to believe that Mormons think that the prophets in the Bible somehow "got it wrong."  I want to clear up the matter and say that we do not believe that.  At all.  We do not believe any of the prophets got it wrong.  In fact, they are what kept things right for so long!  Were it not for all of the prophets the work of the Lord would have had a rather difficult time getting off the ground.  If Adam were not a prophet then he would not have been able to converse with the Lord and know how to keep the commandments.  He wouldn't have known what commandments even were.  If it were not for Noah being a prophet then the entire population of the earth (including noah and the other seven people on the ark) would have been wiped out in the flood, because how would they know about its coming except by being warned by the Lord?  Were it not for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being prophets then we would have missed out on an infinite number of blessings that have come through their posterity.  Were it not for Moses the Lord's covenant people would have remained in bondage in Egypt because they would have not have been led out by a prophet of the Lord.  In fact, the Bible explicitly states, "surely the Lord, God, will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)  Prophets are the way that the Lord has always and will always communicate to his people upon the earth.  So, to be clear, Mormons reverence the prophets of the Bible and in no case have we ever claimed that they "got it wrong."  

The problem that seems to always come up, however, is the disobedience of the people whom the prophets are trying to lead.  This is an undeniable fact.  People have the ability to choose.  They can follow the counsel of the prophet or they can ignore it.  If they ignore it then there are usually pretty severe consequences (like in the case of the Flood) and this is where the problems come into play.  God has a perfect plan, but people are not perfect.  It must be terribly frustrating to God to have only imperfect people to work with, but he makes it work because he is all powerful and because he loves us.  So, even when people mess up (whether individually or as a whole) the Lord brings prophets into play to try and get the people back on track.  This is a very easy thing to see in the Bible.  It is also easy to see a pattern emerging and Mormons call these "dispensations."  Adam as a prophet was the first dispensation, Noah was another, Moses was yet another, and so on.  If God's plan was to only ever use the teachings of one prophet and never call new ones then we would only have the teachings of Adam and that would be (apparently) sufficient for salvation.  However, this is not the case at all and hopefully you can now see why prophets are vital to forwarding the work of the Lord.  

At this point I would bet that you are following the logic of this and aren't in total disagreement with it.  However, the part that will probably hold you up is when Jesus comes to the Earth.  For most protestants that event is the apparent end of prophets coming to the Earth, notwithstanding the fact that Jesus called many others (including the 12 Apostles) to carry on the work once he was gone.  I suppose I can kind of see where that mindset comes from, however to that I would argue that if the Lord didn't intend for this pattern to continue then He would not have given Peter the position he held as the chief Apostle, nor would more Apostles been chosen to fill the vacancy created after the death of Judas Iscariot.  The pattern was meant to continue, however it did not and this was due to persecution of the Church and the difficulties in keeping many different groups of saints living "sound doctrine" without constant correction and reproof from the Apostles.  By 110AD (and that is being generous, it was probably much sooner) all of the Apostles were killed, except for John the Beloved.  I believe the last time he was heard of was around 79AD (though I could be off on that one).  However, after that date, there is silence as far as the Bible is concerned.  There are no new writings from the Apostles (not in the KJV Bible anyway) because they were all gone, and after a time no new Apostles were called to fill vacancies.  So, what of prophets and of revelation?  It ceased for a time.  Surely God still heard and answered the prayers of those who remained faithful, however, how long can a person and their posterity remain true to a belief when there are no leaders and when there are very few, if any, writings from those inspired men?  The Bible as you and I know it really did not exist for quite some time after the turn of the first century AD.  Even still, those who could manage to get writings would only have fragments.  After the Catholic church formed it was nearly impossible for common people to have access to the scriptures.  The holy writings were hoarded by so called priests who cared for wealth and power more than for the salvation of their congregations.  And this is where the interesting part comes.  

The Catholic church claims that they are the Church that Jesus set up while he was on the Earth.  They claim divine authority through the Apostle Peter.  They consider him their first Pope and they feel that each of their Popes since Peter have held the authority that was originally given to Peter.  While there are glaring holes in this way of thinking the Catholics at least hold a unique position as far as Christianity goes.  I'll refer you to the following account for a more eloquent explanation.  This is from Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles during a church conference in April, 1928.

Many years ago I had an interesting conversation with a man who was a member of the Roman Catholic church. He was a great scholar; he must have had a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, and seemed to know all about history, science, law, philosophy, and all the rest of it. We were frank and friendly with each other, and one day he said to me:

 “You ‘Mormons’ are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other position tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Roman Catholic church. The issue is between ‘Mormonism’ and Catholicism. If you are right, we are wrong. If we are right, you are wrong, and that’s all there is to it. These Protestant sects haven’t a leg to stand on; for if we are right, we cut them off long ago, as apostates; and if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, for they were a part of us and came out of us. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there was no need of Joseph Smith and ‘Mormonism;’ but if we have not that apostolic succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and ‘Mormonism’s position is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days.”

 “Doctor,” said I, “that is a very clear and concise statement, and I agree with it in almost every particular. But don’t deceive yourself with the notion that we ‘Mormons’ don’t know the strength of our own position. We know it better than you do. We know it better than any other people can know it. We haven’t all been to been college, we can’t all speak the dead languages, and we may be ignoramuses as you say; but we know we are right, and we know you are wrong.” I was just as frank with him as he had been with me.

From an objective point of view this is a very interesting, yet serious thing to think about.  If Catholics hold the rights and authority as passed down by Peter, then both Mormonism is wrong and every Protestant religion is wrong because we would all be apostate groups that broke off from the truth.  However, if Catholicism is wrong and never had the authority from Peter then the only other way for a Church to claim that authority is by way of a Prophet being called of God.  In either case (and this will be hard for you to hear) all Protestant churches do not hold the authority that was given to Peter, meaning all Protestant churches are false churches to one degree or another.  To be clear, that doesn't mean that everything they teach is wrong, but it does mean that they hold no right to the authority and divine revelation that Christ gave to his Apostles (and especially to Peter).  This means that they are not able to be God's authorized church on the earth.   

Now you may say what you will about Mormonism or about Joseph Smith or about our claim to revelation and divine authority, but you cannot deny that we hold a unique position in relation to the rest of Christianity.  Also, yes, we are Christians in one of the most strict senses I have ever known about.  

So, that is why a restoration was needed.  And if a restoration was not needed then we should all be Catholics.  It is as simple as that.  However, I know that a restoration was needed and I know that God has called prophets again in our day.  The divine authority has been restored to the earth by those who held it previously.  They have returned as resurrected beings with bodies of flesh and bones and have given that authority to God's chosen servants.  

Brian, I am certain that you are a good man and that you continually strive to serve God to the best of your ability.  I admire that and commend you for it.  Your dedication to God is admirable and you should continue forth in doing what you feel is the right thing to do.  I pray that you will be a good pastor to those who look to you for guidance and I hope you continue to grow.  I also hope that I have been able to adequately explain my position, and whether you agree with it or not, I hope that it at least makes sense to you.  If you have further questions I invite you to ask them.  However, I also hope that you will continue to ask God for guidance as well.  He loves us all, no matter what we believe and no matter what we may have done.  

Keep the faith brother,

Hal Waldram

PS  If you are one who is willing to read a lot, which I'm sure you are, then you may find the book Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage to be very insightful.  I have read it many times and think that you would enjoy it.  I have never found a book that organizes the events of the Lord's life in the New Testament as well as that one.  Here is a link to it on Amazon if you are interested Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage .  I think they even have a free Kindle edition.  

_______

After this message I never received a response.  I don't know what happened to the pastor.  I don't know if he even read my words or if he even cares to have an explanation at all of the need for a restoration, but it doesn't really matter.  I was able to bear my witness to him that Jesus is the Christ and that He has restored the fullness of the everlasting gospel in our days.  I was able to bear witness that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church on the Earth.  I was able to bear testimony to him that God has called new prophets in our day, who received direct revelation from Him.  These things are what is important.  Winning arguments or defending your position is of little import however, especially when compared to being able to boldly declare the truth to someone in darkness.  I was able to boldly declare my witness, and whether the pastor believed it or not makes no difference.  I declared the truth and, despite how preposterous it may sound to some people, I know that time will vindicate me.  

Conversation With a Pastor (Part 6)

The next day I received another response from the pastor.  It was rather short, but it was sharp.  However, I was pleased to see that he would watch the video I sent him.  I think it clearly states our belief in Jesus Christ and God the Father better than I ever could.  
________

Hal,

Thanks for your answers and I will watch the video. I am not at all uncomfortable visiting the mormon site. I have researched the site on many occasions. I respect your beliefs. I enjoy open communication. I was a little put back by your calling my actions cowardly. Coward is a very strong word in our part of the country. However, I do forgive you for your behavior. I will never lead or encourage personal attacks on individual members of the mormon faith. Yet, I will continue to study and develop questions regarding comparisons between the "restored gospel" (your words, not mine) and historic Judeo-Christian doctrine. I teach on facets and variances that appear in many different belief systems. I believe it only fair to present the information and allow people to make up their minds about what to believe.

Just to clear up a few areas... I do not draw my income from The Church on Main. My resources come from the ownership of two local restaurants. I am not at all prideful about the membership numbers at our church. As a matter of fact we, The Church on Main, do not make church membership a huge priority. We prioritize following Jesus Christ and seeking to live life as He instructed. You still have not written what your personal doctrine of the deity of Jesus Christ is. I would enjoy reading your theology regarding that. Also, I desire to know why the "Gospel" had to be restored, whom restored it, exactly when it was restored, and if the prophets of old messed it up what in the world would qualify a self-proclaimed modern prophet as the one or ones to "restore" it? Please, help me make sense of the senselessness that I perceive from your words. I welcome your reply.

Brian

________

The fact of the matter is that, despite his insisting that he allows people to make up their minds after "fairly" providing the information, he is very much against the Mormons, or was anyway.  He was not very fair in the things he said about us.  However, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in hopes that he has changed for the better.  

The other thing I wish to comment on was the fact that he seemed to be defending himself against the things that were in my document.  He insisted that he receives no money from his church and he also kept attacking the words "restored gospel."  Now, even though I am the author/compiler of the document I sent him, I rely almost completely on Bible verses in the text.  His angst against the word "restoration" is not really about what I said but rather about what the Bible says.  If he has issues with the idea of restoration then he must have issues with the Bible, which teaches the idea over and over.

Regarding the money that his church brings in, despite his insistance that he receives none of it is beside the point.  He may not personally get money from his work in the church (which is commendable, if it is true) but there are other members of the clergy in his church that do receive payment for their services.  He has associate pastors and other members of the staff that get paid for what they do and that is against what the Bible teaches.  Even if he denies that any of them get any money now (which he hasn't, he only denied that he gets money) his church still brings in a lot of money that has to be going somewhere.  Many of his members (in 2006 anyway) said that they paid offerings to the church as "thank offerings" for the pastor.  I hope that it now goes to charitable things rather than into the pockets of the clergy.  

Another issue I have with what he said is "I will never lead or encourage personal attacks on individual members of the mormon faith."  I don't know if he was meaning that he won't do it again or if he meant that he has never done so.  I hope it was the former and not the latter, because the latter is a lie.  He didn't seem to respect my beliefs in the past, but I hope he now does, even if he disagrees with them.  

I sent him a response explaining why I had used the word "cowardly" and let him know that I hoped we had both matured some since our encounter in 2006.  I also apologized in hopes that my words would not create a chasm between our small, but growing, understanding with one another.  

________

Pastor Stewart,

I don't have a lot of time at the moment to write a full response, however I wanted to let you know why I used the word "cowardly."  The reason I felt I needed to use that word is because, from my perspective, my encounter with you appeared to be somewhat cowardly.  Let me explain.  We met in person after you had said some pretty bad things about Mormons on your radio program.  I was upset by those things yet I figured you would try and confirm the truth or error of what you said if you had the chance.  When we met in person you didn't make any such attempt, and in my eyes it seemed as though you were trying to avoid talking to us.  Granted we were both in a hurry and I could have simply misread the situation (I hope this is the case) since I was much younger than I am now. 

I hope that no harm has been done in this regard and I offer my apologies.  I think we have both matured since then.

I will write a response to the remainder of your inquiries this evening or tomorrow.  I feel as though I have given to you my personal beliefs about Jesus Christ, however I will be glad to go more in depth when I have sufficient time.  

Sincerely,

Hal 

________

My more complete response will follow in another post.  

Conversation With a Pastor (Part 5)

After having received his previous two messages I ended up writing a fairly lengthy one back.  
________
Pastor S,

I am glad to hear that you have grown as a follower of God in the last 
several years. That is always my hope for those who have faith in Jesus 
Christ. We must always press forward with a steadfast faith in Christ and 
keep his commandments in order that we may bless others and find true 
happiness.

I'm glad that you have looked over the document I sent you. For fairness 
sake I will tell you that I never liked the line "can ensure the salvation 
of its members" in my paper because that is not what I believe a church 
does. I believe salvation comes through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, 
however my experience in Mississippi was that many people believe that a 
particular faith (i.e. the Baptist Faith or the Pentecostal Faith) is what 
ensures their salvation. This document was not written specifically for you 
but rather to all who profess to believe the in the Bible.

Before I write any further I want you to know that one of the main reasons I 
decided to write to you at all is because I felt it was my duty to do so. 
See, while I served in the Columbia and Tylertown areas I had a 
responsibility to testify of Jesus Christ and of his restored gospel upon 
the earth. When I had occasion to meet you in person I was in a rush and 
was not able to speak to you at length. It has always bothered me that this 
was the case. Seeing how you are one of the great spiritual leaders of the 
area I was always bothered that I was not able to bear my testimony of Jesus 
Christ to you. I feel as though I short-changed both myself and you, and so 
I want to do so now.

I have a testimony of Jesus Christ and I know that he is the son of the 
everlasting God. I know that he came to the earth, that he suffered and 
died for my pains and sins and that he was resurrected. I know that he 
lives today. I know that he has revealed himself to prophets in our day and 
that he leads the work that I spent two years of my life teaching. If it 
were not for him then all life would be wasted. Without him we would never 
have the opportunity to repent and find forgiveness of our sins and without 
him there would be no resurrection from death. I owe all I have and all I 
am to him, and I love him with all my heart. He is my friend and he is my 
Savior.

I am saddened to see that you feel negatively about my faith, however I am 
not angry with you for it. I believe that all men and women have the right 
to believe in what they want to believe, and worship how they want to 
worship, and it is never right to force anyone into principles that they do 
not believe simply because we disagree with them. I did not write to you 
expecting that you would be converted to my faith or to make you believe 
exactly what I believe. That was not my goal. My intention was to let you 
know of my testimony of Jesus Christ, because I was never able to do so when 
I met you. I also wanted you to know that Mormons are not evil and that we 
do not seek to force our religion on anyone. We ask people to bring all the 
good and true principles that they have and then see if we can add to them. 
We never ask anyone to deny the truth they already have. To be fair, some 
of us are a bit overzealous and forceful at times, however you by your own 
admission know that people are not perfect. We are simply doing the best we 
have with the knowledge we have, and nobody should be faulted for being too 
faithful.

Since you were able to figure out which faith I belong to based solely on 
the Bible references I sent you, I am going to pass on expounding on the 
different topics you asked about at this time. My guess is you probably 
know what I believe. Honestly, the document I sent you answers all of your 
questions to some degree. After studying that, if you still have questions, 
I would be happy to answer them.

For now I will bid you farewell. I ask that you keep me in your prayers and 
I will also keep you in mine.

Sincerely,

Hal Waldram
________

I tried to be a civil as possibly but I did not want to answer every question he had (at least not in its entirety) because I was pretty sure he knew my beliefs and was simply looking for a way to get me to say something amiss.  I hope this wasn't the case, but I always work on the side of caution in cases like this.  

I also sent him the following video in the next message to him.  I sent him a YouTube link just in case he was worried about going to an official LDS website.  I figured this video would provide the LDS outlook on the nature of God the Father and Jesus Christ better than any way I could explain it.  Elder Holland has a profound way with words and speaks with the Spirit every time he speaks in a meeting.  

Conversation With a Pastor (Part 4)

After I sent my original email, I did not hear back from him until later in the afternoon the next day.  Frankly, I was surprised that I received a response at all.  However, I didn't tell him I am a Mormon or that I was mad specifically at what he said about my church, and his reaction was interesting.  At first (before he knew which faith I belong to) he was very kind and apologetic for ever hurting my feelings.  Here is the message.  
_________

Mr. Waldram,

I apologize, but I do not remember you. I am not sure of what teaching you are referring to. However, it seems you have very strong feelings regarding the teaching. I will read over the document you sent. I do not remember shrinking back from any teaching I have taught. Also, I do not remember any cowardly actions that I am guilty of... perhaps you could refresh my memory. I am not infalliable but I am ready to defend any teaching in my past to you or anyone else. I look forward to hearing more from you and maybe meeting you again.

B S

_________

I was very happy at his response.  Perhaps he had changed.  Perhaps he was more accepting of other faiths.  However, before I could respond again he wrote me back with the following email.  He had figured out I was a Mormon.

_________

Mr. Waldram,

I read the document you composed. I respect the work you put into the compilation and I will spend some more time reading it. Earlier I questioned which teaching you were refeering to, but no question remains. I deduced you were referring to the series I taught regarding mormonism. You were exactly right when you wrote of my growth as a man fooolowing God. I thank God that I have and continue to grow as I am sure you have as well. I do apologize for some of the personal comments that I made in my humanity. However, I do not agree with the doctrines and or teaching of mormonism. I will continue to teach the dangers and deceptions of the mormons.

If you would expound upon the mormon doctrine of the diety of Jesus Christ and I would enjoy learning more about baptism by proxy, eternal marriage, and mormon eschatology among other aspects of mormonism. I respect your freedom to believe how you want, but please respect my freedom to raise questions about those beliefs. I do not apologize for that. I look forward and welcome continued response on your behalf.

I do have many major biblical and theological disagreements with you document. I will write of just one at present. Your line that the church "can ensure the salvation of its members" is not in line with biblical teaching. I do not believe the Bible teaches that any church can ensure salvation of its members. However, I believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ can ensure salvation of his body, the Church. I choose to leave those assurances up to Jesus.

Thank you,

B

_______

I find it very amusing that someone who claims that Mormons do not believe in the Bible was able to determine that I am, in fact, a Mormon based solely on the Bible verses that I sent to him.  Perhaps our faith in the Bible is more widely known than people let on.  

Conversation With a Pastor (Part 3)

I have provided quite a thorough background to this story in the last two posts that I have written about it.  Now I feel like it is time to share what was actually said between myself and the pastor.  I want it to be known that I have no issue with what someone wants to believe, so long as they are respectful about it and do not harm someone else while doing so.  The 11th Article of Faith of my church states,

"We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

I thoroughly believe in this statement and do my best to follow it.  However, in relation to this pastor, please remember that he said some pretty terrible things about me and my faith.  He even suggested that we be "run out of town with sticks."  This, to me, is a threat of violence and as such grants him no right to do or say what he did.  Reasons like these have kept this in my mind all of these years and I think it is why I decided to finally contact him.  I do not know why I decided to contact him, or even what I was thinking of prior to doing so, but I do know that I felt as though it was my duty to bear my witness to him that what I believe is true and that what he said about us was wrong.  

In contacting him, and in knowing that he would ignore anything I said if I told her I were a Mormon right off the bat, I decided to say which church I belonged to.  I simply submitted this email and the document that I had prepared.  I also tried to be as pleasant as possible, giving him the benefit of the doubt (all things considered).  

Here is the first email I sent to him.  His response will follow in a later post.  
_____

B,

Several years ago I lived in Columbia Mississippi and had occasion to meet you once or twice. You probably wouldn't remember me but I remember you. It is not always easy to remember what a person says but it is very easy to remember how a person made you feel. Unfortunately, you didn't make me feel that good, and it was mostly because of what you taught and how you taught it. 

However, The Lord taught us to love our neighbors and so I have tried to expand that feeling in myself towards you. Actually, during the times you made me feel bad I still had love for you, but it has grown now. It has grown with an understanding that you were probably doing your best to teach the truth to the best of your ability with the light and knowledge you currently possess. 

I hope the best for you but I also pray that your heart will be open to receive more truth. It is very easy to interpret (or misinterpret) Gods word in many instances, but things that are true never change. Truth isn't subject to opinion. Truth is reason and truth is eternal. 

With this in mind I have compiled many references from the Bible for your consideration. I know that you will fully believe some of these things and some you will utterly reject, yet all are from the same bible and all are valid and true principles.  I would ask that you keep an open mind as you read them. 

My request to you is that you will not shut out anyone, or any church, that believes in things differently from you. All Christians should believe the things in this document, if they profess to follow the bible that is.  Please do not tear down other faiths because of what they teach. I realize your "ministry" is also your livelihood but that doesn't give you the right to deny people a belief in something or to condemn them for not following your faith. It seems strange that someone who professes to follow God and seek truth would deny someone that same privilege simply because it would cost you membership and income. It also seems cowardly to speak harsh words against a faith over the radio or pulpit while utterly shrinking to confront it when you face it in person. I hope that you are better than that now. A follower of Jesus Christ should not be a coward but should be willing to give an answer to those who ask them about their faith. 

I hope this document, if nothing else, will prove to be a useful study tool for you.  However, my wish is that it will open your mind to further light and truth.  If you have questions or comments I would be happy to answer you back. Also, if my words have offended you then I'm sorry, nevertheless they needed to be said.  If fortune favors us both, and you have been enlightened by this, then I will consider that I have gained a brother. I hope it is the latter. 

Best regards,

Hal Waldram

______

You can read my document in eBook form at the link below.

The True Church of Jesus Christ